“Rewriting
the Poets in Plato” by David K. O’Connor
In the creation of the just city and
determining the education of the guardians who protect and rule the city,
Socrates states that poetry will not be allowed in the education system of the
guardians. Yet the irony lies in the fact that Socrates himself refers back to
famous poets such as Hesiod and Homer in order to retort the arguments made by
Glaucon and Adeimantus (56). Plato uses these two poets in characterizing each
of his brothers, adding a level of myth to the dialogue on justice (56).
The references to the myth of Homer
can be seen in the first few lines of the Republic,
in which Socrates “descended” to Piraeus and Cephalus stating that Socrates
does not “descend” to Piraeus very often (59). The word descend itself has mythological overtones as the Greek word means a
trip to the underworld. O’Connor compares Socrates to the hero Odysseus who
ended up retiring from his “labors” to live a quiet life away from politics
after having descended into the underworld and gaining a new understanding (60).
However, when Socrates refers to the passage in the Odyssey when Odysseus is told to seek out Teiresias, the blind
prophet, we are left to question if Socrates is in fact the “hero” of the Republic or if he serves as the blind
prophet who guides the hero out of the underworld (62). This idea of being guided
towards the world of the living is revisited by Plato in the Allegory of the Cave where the only way
for the prisoners to leave is if they are forcefully dragged up by someone (62).
In the case of the Republic, it
appears as though Socrates is the one guiding Glaucon in the ways of the world
(62).
O’Connor attributes the citing of
Homer in the Republic to echo Glaucon,
who is particularly interested in the political aspect of justice. Glaucon
himself is portrayed as having manliness and courage as well as a lover of
music and honor and erotic passion. The central question of the Republic is arguably how philosophy can
channel the energy derived from this love of honor so that it can be used to
serve the common good but not so that the desire to dominate overpowers the
noble act (64). The guardian is said to be one who is not too soft and not too
harsh and Socrates claims that Glaucon, though it seems he is political
ambitious, is a mixture of both this softness (music) and harshness
(gymnastics). But the fascination of tyranny as well as his struggle of erotic
passion is most evident in his retelling of the Ring of Gyges in which he suggests that the first thing a man will
do when given the opportunity to act free of consequences is to commit
adultery. Because Glaucon is young, he does not have the wisdom to escape the
fascination of tyranny as old men do and as a result, he needs a guide to show
him. It is towards the end of the Republic
that Socrates answers Glaucon’s Ring Of
Gyges myth using passages from Homer that depict the afterlife. He brings
up Hades’ cap which possesses the same power as the Ring of Gyges (68)
The ambiguity of Socrates’ role as
either the hero or the hero’s guide surround the question of whether “he knows
how to get out of the cave or if he is simply showing the path for someone else”
(63). According to O’Connor, the closest we ever get to answering this question
is during the discussion of the “Good” during which everyone expects Socrates
to explain what it is (63). However, Plato leaves us with a cliffhanger as
Socrates says he cannot explain it, either because he does not truly know what
it is or because those he is speaking to do not possess the capacity to
understand it (63). O’Connor dives into the question of “What kind of guide
Socrates has become for Glaucon?” (64). He identifies two moods that Socrates
takes up throughout the dialogue, one that entails reformist ideals while the
other an escapist’s. Socrates states that a guardian will want to flee from the
city but must be compelled back into the world of politics.
O’Connor points out that there is a
religious/spiritual theme that can be found in the Republic, starting with the
first few lines of the dialogue in which Socrates descends to Piraeus with
Glaucon wanting to pray to the goddess (73). He draws the connection between
the notions of using sacrifices as a way to atone for sins and the “releasing
of the prisoners from their chains” in the Allegory of the Cave, both of which
are ideas that Adeimantus rejects (75). While Glaucon is more concerned with
the political aspect of justice, it seems as though Adeimantus is concerned
with the spiritual aspect of justice. O’Connor says that Adeimantus wants
simplicity, particularly in attaining virtue. Hesiod portrays the road of
virtue to be a rough and steep one, something that Adeimantus wants to be
easier (76). Just as Plato used Homer to answer Glaucon, he uses Hesiod in
order to answer Adeimantus (78). Plato uses Hesiod’s “The Races of Metals” when
talking about the noble lie and degeneration and especially the characterize
the guardians. O’Connor ties in the retelling of Hesiod’s myth by Socrates,
where the golden men haunt us even when they are still alive, into this idea of
divine disguise as being a form of lying, something that Adeimantus is
concerned with (81). Socrates once again looks to Homer in order to answer
these questions. He suggests that Odysseus is a “disguised” god watching the
suitors that have taken over his home, saying that a man is allowed to hide
himself from his enemies if his life is in danger (83). The lies that exist in
the Republic can be attributed to Plato’s rewriting of Hesiod’s “The Races of
Metals” such as the noble lie that citizens must believe so that children are
used as public resources for the city (83).
Finally O’Connor ties in Hesiod’s
myth when talking about the political degeneration in which he identifies the
fourth of Plato’s five regimes as democracy. While it may be a bad regime,
democracy is a city that can found when one adopts the reformist mood described
earlier. Democracy allows for reform but also an escape because it is a regime
that doesn’t necessarily have a “ruler” (87). O’Connor finishes his piece by
praising Plato’s mythical take on democracy using the subtle voices of the
poets Homer and Hesiod (87).
- Do you think that Socrates’ role is more like Odysseus’s or more like Teiresias’s? Could his role be a combination of both or neither?
- Does Plato’s incorporation of poetic passages contradict the initial decree of banning poetry from the education of the guardians?
- Why do you think that it is Glaucon that receives the speech about lying from Socrates even though it is Adeimantus who is concerned with human lying and divine disguise (83)?
- Why do you think that Plato leaves this ambiguity regarding Socrates’s understanding of the “Good”?
- O’Connor seems to think that Socrates had failed in guiding Glaucon by instilling in him two conflicting ideas, one where he cannot dismiss politics but also not be able to change it either (71). Do you think that Socrates failed? Where does this leave Glaucon in terms of either leaving the cave (politics) or returning to it?
Question 1: I feel as though Socrates' role may be more like Teiresias's. It seems like Socrates does not know the answers, but is just asking the questions. Based on the question that he asks, he starts to ask different questions. However, these questions are still based on a specific goal of answering a question that the other person may have. So I think that Socrates is like the profit because he is leading the other person out of the cave by giving helping them realize the answers to the questions they may have. This way, they are gaining knowledge on their own without being told.
ReplyDeleteI like O'Connor's image of Teiresias, and I think his argument is brilliant, but I'll admit to not quite knowing where he gets the idea of a guide who doesn't, himself, make it out of the cave (in the Republic). In the Odyssey, Teiresias gets to the underworld the old fashioned way--he dies! There's never any question of his descent or ascent, so it seems like an odd model for the dynamic in the Republic. I'm wide open to other perspectives, though!
DeleteQuestions 1&4: I believe questions one and four work together. Socrates feels to be more like Teiresias for he is leading the questions and discussion for the answers to come in conversation instead of directly from Socrates. This guiding presence resembles the blind prophet guiding but not telling directly or leading directly.
ReplyDeleteFor this same reason I believe Plato left Socrates not able or not wanting to explain the "good" for a very similar reason. The Good has to be discovered naturally not through being told directly. Everything else Socrates does guides the conversations by asking the right questions but enabling the audience to come to their own knowledge or conclusions from his questions. That is why I believe that these two questions are closely related that Socrates is the guiding force that can't or won't tell the audience directly the knowledge and insists that they come to the knowledge on their own.
Your point about "the good" is very well taken. Just to say that we cannot see it directly, is not to say that we cannot discern it distinctly. I didn't "see" any wind today, but I was in a lot of it. I have absolutely no doubt that I was, even though all of my evidence is indirect-the movement of the trees and my hair, the feeling on my skin, etc. So, even if we conclude that we cannot see the good (look directly at the sun), we needn't jump to the conclusion that "the good" is inaccessible to us.
Delete(4) I think the reason why Socrates doesn't explain "the Good" is simply because it cannot be taught or explained. It is one of those things that one has to experience by himself or herself. Everyone is not going to have the same outcome, therefore, why to speak objectively. I don't feel as though he doesn't know or understand the good, I think he just wants people to understand it for themselves. After all, he is the blind prophet that leads the hero and we all know prophets see the future in pieces not as a whole because if that was the case they would have too much power and we definitely wouldn't need a GOD.
DeleteQuestion 5: I think Socrates succeeded rather than failed because the goal of the dialogue was to discover justice and to turn people towards it. By explaining what justice is and how to attain it, I believe Socrates achieved what he set out to do. In regards to Glaucon being left with two conflicting ideas, I think this also could possibly be viewed as a success. Socrates wants his audience to make decisions themselves and have internal conflicts, which will lead them to discover justice on their own. Therefore, Glaucon being left with conflicting ideas actually seems to be part of Socrates message to the audience.
ReplyDeleteSocrates is famous for saying that the soul is in a much better state when it knows what it doesn't know than when it doesn't know what it doesn't know, so I agree completely.
DeleteI do think we should face, however, the fact that Yunis and O'Connor seem to be offering conflicting readings and that we should try to develop our own opinions about whose reading we each find more persuasive (rather than not facing the conflict). Yunis claims that Glaucon and Adeimantus are convinced at the end of the dialogue that justice is preferable to injustice. O'Connor says Glaucon is left not knowing what to think. Who do you think is right? Why? (These are rhetorical questions. You're not required to answer, but you're welcome to!)
Question 2: I think it is a little contradictory that Plato uses poetry in the Republic yet in the Republic Socrates won't include poetry in the Guardian's education. There are morals in poetry, knowledge that can further the individual as a person, and poetry is used in the Republic to illustrate points, so why wouldn't poetry be useful for the Guardians' education? It could demonstrate the need for justice and moderation, even if the Guardians are subjected to extreme or bad behaviors via the poetry. So it's interesting that the Guardians aren't allowed to be exposed to poetry in their education.
ReplyDeleteThe key to this might come back to the importance of not mistaking the guardians auxiliaries, and money makers for real people. Real people get all the poetry they want. Parts of our soul are given what other parts of our soul determine to be appropriate.
DeleteI'm not saying this is necessarily easy, but it is the path forward, I believe.
Question 2: I don't think it's contradictory at all. I think when Socrates explicitly denounces poetry in book 3, it is because the perfect poet can perfectly imitate the good and the bad, and thereby making the good and bad in certain situations both look appealing. Don't forget that Socrates is concerned with the soul, and what he describes here is merely how he would visualize it in a city. I think that this, and other times when he denounces the poets are only because in the Just City he has such a tight restriction on what goes in (for the very reason shown here, that bad can look appealing). - This is similar to getting the stories about gods out of the city if the gods don't act the way they should in the stories.
ReplyDeleteThis sounds right to me. Once you start with the acknowledgement that the guardians aren't people, you can develop theories (like this one) that resolve the apparent contradiction. If you forget that the city is an analogy for the soul, it gets very murky and confused.
DeleteQuestion 2: I don't think it's contradictory at all. I think when Socrates explicitly denounces poetry in book 3, it is because the perfect poet can perfectly imitate the good and the bad, and thereby making the good and bad in certain situations both look appealing. Don't forget that Socrates is concerned with the soul, and what he describes here is merely how he would visualize it in a city. I think that this, and other times when he denounces the poets are only because in the Just City he has such a tight restriction on what goes in (for the very reason shown here, that bad can look appealing). - This is similar to getting the stories about gods out of the city if the gods don't act the way they should in the stories.
ReplyDeleteSolid synopsis of a tough article. Well done. The details are very tricky and controversial, but we neglect the larger point at our peril when we read the Republic: it is poetry! Whatever the ban on poetry means, a coherent reading of the Republic must acknowledge its poetic, mimetic nature. O'Connor not only does so, he reaches into the myths and language of Homer and Hesiod to show how infused with ancient mythology the Republic really is.
ReplyDeleteSpecifically, you're right to emphasize the importance of "descent" as a motif drawn from Homer and alluding to mystery cults. Without a detailed understanding of either, it is difficult to cache out these points fully. Anyone who is interested in these topics, should look at O'Connor's excellent bibliography and come talk to me. There are some interesting books on Ancient Athenian religion that corroborate many of O'Connor's points and give another angle on this difficult and incredibly interesting perspective on the Republic.
Nice work, Farah.
(2) I believe a key aspect to remember in regards to poetry is that Plato himself in book 5 likened philosophers to artist who create works of art, but their art is with words and ideas. Isn't that the same as poets? They use words and mental images to create these poems which are seen as works of art. But in ultimately I do not see him banning poetry in education and then himself using it as a contradiction.
ReplyDelete1. Socrates is definitely more like Teiresias. Socrates is serving as a moderator for the argument, therefore he is serving as a guide, leading Glaucon and Adiemantus on a journey through the means of questioning and answering (Socratic method). I believe Socrates’s ultimate goal is to show a model of a good life, with justice and knowledge and he is attempting to guide Glaucon and Adeimantus to this goal through questioning. He has an ultimate goal, and it is not to be a hero, but an educator. Education is clearly important throughout the whole Republic and Socrates serving as an educating guide only reinforces his feelings of the importance of education.
ReplyDelete